Copenhagen, Denmark – On a freezing Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe warmed up in a movie theater, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with one of the organizers of a conference he would soon speak about between sips of black coffee served in a paper cup.
Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the language “of the colonized” by spending time in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends and taking formal Arabic classes.
Hundreds of academics, officials, international rights activists and ordinary Danes appalled by Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in Gaza attended the event in the Danish capital, organized by the European Palestinian Network.
The group was founded recently and counts Danes of Palestinian origin among its members.
Pappe then told the audience that since the outbreak of Israel’s latest war on Gaza, he had been shocked by Europe’s response.
“I share with many people a surprise about the European position,” he declared on stage. “Europe, which claims to be a model of civilization, ignored the most televised genocide of modern times.”
On the sidelines, Tel Aviv Tribune interviewed Pappe, 70, a prominent Israeli historian, author and professor who spent much of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, solidarity and what he thinks a changing US political landscape means for Gaza.
Tel Aviv Tribune: You have long said that the tools of Zionism, the nationalist political ideology that called for the creation of a Jewish state, included land capture and expulsions. Over the past 15 months, Gaza has suffered daily massacres. What stage of Zionism are we witnessing?
Ilan Pappé: We are in a state that can be described as neo-Zionist. The old values of Zionism are now more extreme, (in) a much more aggressive form than before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists tried to achieve (a) in a much longer, more gradual way. , progressive manner.
This is an attempt by a new leadership of Zionism to complete the work they began in 1948 of officially seizing all of historic Palestine and getting rid of of as many Palestinians as possible and in the same process, and (it is) something new, creating a new Israeli empire that is either feared or respected by its neighbors – and can therefore even expand territorially beyond beyond the borders of Mandatory or historic Palestine.
Historically, I am prepared to say with some caution that this is the last phase of Zionism. Historically, such developments in ideological movements, whether colonies or empires, usually constitute the final (i.e.) ruthless, most ambitious chapter. And then it’s too much and then they fall and collapse.
Tel Aviv Tribune: We are days away from a new political landscape as Donald Trump visits the White House for the second time. He has an even stronger voice on social media with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who praises Israeli policies and its military, among his administration’s top officials. How do you see the presidency influencing Israel? Will the war on Gaza continue?
Dad : It is very difficult to see anything positive from Trump’s second term and his associations with Elon Musk.
The future of Israel and Zionism is linked to the future of America.
I don’t think all Americans support Trump. I don’t think all Americans are Elon Musk fans.
(But) I’m afraid there won’t be much to do in the next two or three years.
The only good news is that populist leaders like (US President-elect Donald) Trump and weirdos like Elon Musk are not very capable. They will drag down the American economy and the United States’ international position with them, so it will end badly for America if these kinds of figures rule it.
In the long term, I think this could lead to less US involvement in the Middle East. And to me, a scenario in which American involvement is minimal is a positive scenario.
We need international intervention not only in Palestine but throughout the Arab world, but it must come from the South and not the North. The Global North has left such a legacy that very few people would consider a Northerner an honest broker. I’m very worried about the short term, I don’t want to be misunderstood. I see no strength to stop the short-term disasters that await us.
When I look at the broader perspective, I think we are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity, not the beginning of a bad chapter.
Tel Aviv Tribune: Ceasefire negotiations are currently underway. When do you think Palestine will experience peace?
Dad : I don’t know, but I think that even a ceasefire in Gaza is unfortunately not the end, because of the genocide. Hopefully there will be enough power, if not to stop it, then at least to tame or limit it.
In the long term, I see a process that will be long. I’m talking 20 years, but I think we’re at the beginning of this process.
It is a process of decolonization of a colonial project.
This can go either way. We know this from history. Decolonization can be very violent and not necessarily produce a better regime, or it can be an opportunity to build something much better, a win-win for everyone involved and for the region as a whole.
Tel Aviv Tribune: For Palestinians and many observers, it is as if the world stands idly by while Israel expands into its neighbors and commits genocide with impunity.
Dad : Well, the last step, from a historical point of view, is a long process. This is not an immediate process. The question is not if it will happen, but rather when. And that could certainly take time.
Certain developments at the regional and global levels allow this phase to continue. Whether it is the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, the new right-wing fascism in Europe, the level of corruption in some Arab countries, all of this contributes to maintaining a a global alliance that allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another alliance.
It doesn’t have the same power, but it is widespread and linked to many other struggles against injustice. It’s entirely possible that, if not in the immediate future, sometime down the road, this kind of global sentiment that focuses not just on Palestine, but on global warming, poverty, immigration , etc., becomes that one. a more powerful political force. Each small victory of this other global alliance brings the Zionist project closer to its end.
Tel Aviv Tribune: What should this other alliance do? What could help their cause?
Dad : There are two things. First, we don’t have an organization that contains this goodwill, this support, this solidarity, this energy to fight against injustice. It needs a real organization and some young people who are part of this alliance seem to hate, for good reasons, organizations, etc. But you need that infrastructure.
The second thing is to abandon the purist approach of these movements in the past and create networks and alliances that take into account that people do not agree even on fundamental issues, but are able to work together to put an end to the genocide in Gaza, to liberate the colonized peoples. .
Tel Aviv Tribune: Coming back to the most powerful alliance that you say supports Zionism, you talked about the rise of the far right in Europe. But among them, there are still currents of anti-Semitism.
Dad : This unholy alliance existed from the very beginning. If you think about it logically, the anti-Semites and the Zionists, when it came to Europe, had the same goal, they didn’t want to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be a goal of both the Zionist movement and the anti-Semitic movement.
There is now a new uniformity of ideas between the neo-right and Israel: it is Islamophobia.
The new right, although it still includes strong anti-Jewish elements, particularly anti-Semitic, now mainly targets Muslim and Arab communities. It does not particularly target Jewish communities.
They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic and anti-Arab force in the world, so there is an identification there as well – but of course, this is something Jews outside of Israel would regret. they were part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israeli Jews in Europe feel a little uncomfortable at the idea of (those who) fly the Israeli flag, but at the same time the Nazi flag.
Hopefully this will cause them to rethink their association with Israel. We are already seeing signs, particularly in the American Jewish community among the younger generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political alliance that they, as American Jews, cannot identify with .
As we say, this allows Israel to continue thanks to Trump and the populist leaders, but it is also something that will not be forever in the future.
Tel Aviv Tribune: The genocide led many people, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and the historic ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families divided by their understanding of the conflict?
Dad : This doesn’t happen (in Israel), but certainly to Jewish families outside of Israel.
The amount of information circulating is such that the younger generation cannot be blind. Even if they receive a very good Jewish education, they can see even more the immorality of Israeli action.
It’s mostly intergenerational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means the current generation could be much more uniform in this position.
Tel Aviv Tribune: But in Israel, young people also have access to documentation of the genocide on social media, on platforms like TikTok. But many people are still unaware of the suffering of the Palestinians.
Dad : They did not receive the same education as young Jews in America. They received an education in a very indoctrinated country. And that’s the key. They were produced, if you will, by the Israeli education system.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that if one examines Israeli programs, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extremists and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.
It is the product of a society that is highly indoctrinated from cradle to grave.
We need to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope it will make them move.
They can see dead Palestinian babies and say “Good, very good.” Dehumanization is part of the Israeli DNA and it is very difficult to deal with it simply by giving them more information.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.